Over the last half century, Usha Mehta has tirelessly worked to keep the spirit of Gandhi alive. This most amazing woman is deeply disenchanted with the India of the present. Is this the freedom you fought for, Archana Masih asks her:After having participated in the freedom struggle what expectations did you have from independent India.
Our expectations have not been fulfilled. By and large our dreams haven't come true.
Barring in one or two directions, I do not think we have marched the way Gandhiji wanted us to. The India of his dreams was where there was minimum unemployment--where people were supplied with some craft to earn a living wage. There would be no difference on the basis of community, caste or religion. Where people were disciplined and developed a constitutional habit to obey laws passed by the state. That India would have a sense of affinity with all those who were victims of injustice and exploitation because India's freedom was not for India alone, it was for the whole suppressed sections of humanity.
How many of these expectations were fulfilled and how many got lost in the way?
In the social field, Gandhiji wanted the removal of untouchability. Although it is now a punishable offense, even then I think the atrocities on the harijans is increasing instead of decreasing, let alone abolished.
Similarly, take the concept of equality between men and women. Today I can't imagine how women are abused in free India. Rape. Almost everyday, atleast one or two cases of rape must be taking place in our country. Not only rape by one individual but gang rapes and custodial rapes.
I do not say the government hasn't done anything for women. Some laws have been passed, 30 per cent reservation is given to them. But only reservations is not the solution. Along with this should come real education. Women should be made aware of their rights. Therefore, a constant education campaign should go on. If women are educated, the family planning programme will also catch up which is the best way of implementing this programme. Unfortunately we haven't done this.
Then Gandhiji wanted education through the medium of a craft. Where there was a close connection with the realities of life and the type of education imparted. Today education is stuffed with information and no values. What we need is value education. Education has remained examination oriented, not life oriented. This is the reason why there is such unemployment that many graduates and double graduates sometimes seek employment as lift attendants.
What prompted you to join the freedom movement?
I do not think I should be given credit alone. No one could resist participating in the freedom struggle. It was because of Gandhiji and the atmosphere that was created in the country that we participated so enthusiastically. It was almost electrifying.
I first became aware of the movement when I was around seven or eight year old. Actually there was hardly any child who wasn't affected. As we didn't have a party of our own, the children formed a vanar sena (army of monkeys), and were prepared to lay down their lives for their leaders. We were told not to use violence at all. Slogans were our only weapons.
I still remember how we used to go from house to house selling khadi, carrying it on our shoulders. Picketing liquor shops-- asking people not to drink. Our struggle was essentially a moral struggle -- a struggle to reinstate values. It was not a struggle to merely win political freedom. And this is what made it unique.
I remember once we had taken out a procession. It was a mile long procession and we were shouting slogans like 'Inquilab Zindabad, Long Live Gandhi.'
Meanwhile there was a lathicharge and a girl from our volunteer group fell and became unconscious.
The flag also fell from her hand. We were very unhappy. Not only because Sarla was unconscious but because the flag had fallen. So we asked our leaders to show us some way out. When they couldn't do anything, we said told them now we would give the orders and they would follow. They agreed.
We then got khadi shops opened in the middle of the night, sat down on the streets with our aunts, mothers and grandmothers and stitched uniforms. Next morning we took out a procession again - but without flags. Our clothes contained the three colours of the flag -white, green and red. We wore white chunnis (veils), green blouses and white petticoats. We went to the police station and told them, 'Ae policewalloh, chalao lathi, chalao danda; jhuk na sakega apna jhanda. (Policemen, you can wield your sticks and your batons but you cannot bring down our flag).
What was your finest moment in this great struggle?
My finest moment was when I was arrested broadcasting on the Congress radio. It was also my saddest moment because our own technician had betrayed us and informed the police. We were very proud of our station and the police wouldn't have known if it was not for his betrayal.
Secondly, when a special case was made against us. We, the five accused, had to appear in the witness box. The first question I was asked was whether I was present at the broadcasting station. I replied, 'My lord, if it is not compulsory for me to answer your questions, I do not want to answer it.'
I did not want to tell a lie and save myself. The judge complimented me for taking that stand and I was sentenced to four years imprisonment.
To tell you the truth, the joy of Independence was dampened by the partition of the country. I got this news while recuperating in Bombay because imprisonment had ruined my health completely. I did not even feel like going for the flag salutation but I heard Nehruji's speech.
Today after so many years we do not feel enthused about it at all. Ours is a generation which is getting extinct but till the end I would like to do whatever I can. We still have to build this country. First it was Desh ko bachao, now it is desh ko banao. (Save the nation, now it is to build the nation).
What do you think of the economic process in the country? What flaws do you find in these reforms?
I have not done an in-depth study of economics. But as a person interested in the real development of the country I would say we have to march with the time and cannot lead an isolated life.
Gandhiji said you have to encourage village industry. Yes you cannot make any village self sufficient and have to depend on others. But there should be a controlled policy. MNCs should come only in areas where we do not have the required expertise or to set up industries and giving technical training to others engaged in other industries. As far as consumer goods are concerned we must not allow them. For instance, take potato wafers, our grannies and mothers can make better and much cheaper wafers!
So in these cases foreign companies should not come and tinker with our economy, then take our environment. Industrialisation should not be at the cost of the local population, by harming the trees and destroying the forests. The natural sources of energy should be channelised properly. What we want is not merely development but sustainable development.
I wonder if our economic sovereignty will remain intact.
Gandhiji had encouraged small scale industries so that the poorest of the poor could augment his income by plying a charkha or doing some basic craft. Today we just had a meeting of all khadi workers. They say old women that were earning Rs 15 or Rs 20 or even Rs 30 or Rs 40 are all starving and so many khadi institutions have not even received their dues for the last three or four years.
In the economic field we haven't made much progress. I wouldn't say we have not done anything. Our industrial base may have strengthened. There is nothing from a pin to an aeroplane that we cannot make ourselves. But I am afraid with liberalisation and globalisation we will be enriching foreign countries at the expense of our country. This should not happen. I can see the East India company more or less returning.
How do you see the political fabric of the country?
In politics, everything has turned upside down. Gandhiji, even Gokhaleji wanted a close connection between morals and politics. Today not only has politics been criminalised but criminals themselves rule over us. It has reached the extent that our own home minister says that this nexus cannot be broken.
As far as communal harmony is concerned, we felt with partition most of our troubles will be solved. But today instead of being solved they have grown.
Only in the field of our foreign policy we have by and large stuck to the promise of world peace.
Can this degeneration of India be stopped?
We will not be able to make-up completely, but we can stop the rot and prevent further deterioration in social and economic activity.
This has been an experiment, we are trying. But all said and done it is an experiment worth trying.
We must give a prominent place to the teaching of moral values. Perhaps then we have some hope.
Secondly, many NGOs have volunteered to help. In the country there a thousand or so Gandhian organisations, plus there are women's organisations that are more aware and therefore we can stop violation of rights. If we cannot stop the rot we can atleast sound a warning.
Thirdly, Gandhiji and other leaders emphasised that decentralisation could play in the whole process of economic development.
There is not much wrong with the policies we have taken, but they should be implemented properly.
I am in favour of socialism. There is nothing wrong with socialist ideology. It was the way we tried to implement that it has become a failure. We shouldn't do anything at the cost of our own country. It doesn't matter if the country gets industrialised a little later but no one should be deprived of the employment he already has.
Who do you think is responsible for the present situation in the country?
Perhaps this is a global phenomena. The freedom struggle was a fight against foreign domination. We didn't have any power with us, so whatever we did was to free the country from foreign domination. Whereas with Independence came power and power has a tendency to corrupt.
Secondly, television has led to further deterioration. I do not say stop viewing television or put a ban on it. But we should be more careful about the programmes we televise. I also feel there should be some timings fixed. Watching films depicting sex and violence the whole day is not right. We have just opened our doors to all and sundry media companies.
Each individual should be given some civic training. He should be taught to live as an ideal citizen which is not being done today.
Is idealism dead in the country. Or is it still alive somewhere?
No, we should never lose faith. There is a silver lining. In the country there are a substantial number of dedicated workers trying to work for real development. They do not care for anything and that is a good sign. Consciousness among the people has certainly increased and that is one of the saving factors.
What we have to do now is to build up an infrastructure for the successful working of democracy. It is not merely our boundaries, the mountains and rivers that make a country - it is the people and the type of people. You have to build the character of these people.
Was idealism bypassed by the Congressmen after Independence?
Yes, the Congress of pre-Independence days was certainly much much different from the Congress of today. The Congress of today should not claim to be the continuation of the same Congress.
What I would like to assert is at that time also there might have been some blacklegs. There were lots of funds collected by Gandhiji and other leaders. There were people like Jamnalal Bajaj, Godrej and others that gave substantial funds to the Congress and never asked for accounts. But Gandhiji had trained all his followers in such a way that not a single penny went unaccountable. This discipline that they imbibed from Gandhiji is now missing.
Do you think there could have been some flaws in the policies made by the nation builders that have resulted in this degeneration?
The policies followed by the Congress at that time were quite correct and in the right direction. They were meant for an equalitarian society but the only thing is that we were not able to implement them at all.
The rot set in especially after Indiraji's coming to power. It is not that Nehru's time there was no corruption. Corruption was there but not to this extent.
I wish Lal Bahadur Shastri had survived a little longer then the picture would have been different. After him the standards started coming down and today it has reached its nadir. We could not imagine that our ex-prime minister would stoop to this depth. Sometimes I think we are going down the drain.
Even then I feel this is not the eleventh but the thirteenth hour. As Swami Vivekanand had said, 'You awake, arise,' we can still wake up. If we do not do it now, the battle is lost and our civilisation, the oldest will become extinct and I do not know what will happen to India as a nation.
Do you fear a disintegration of India?
As long as some unifying forces work and work very hard, I see the country being completely divided and ruined.
A national spirit has to be injected. If moral values are going to deteriorate and we go on like this then there will be complete anarchy and destruction. In the international field it is said in the event of a third war there will be no victor and no vanquished, the whole world will be destroyed.
Similarly I feel if we don't wake up now then India as a nation will certainly be ruined.
Can corruption be weeded out from the country?
It cannot be fully cleaned and that too not immediately. But that does not mean that we should accept it and get reconciled to it. All of us should make an effort to see that the country is rid of corruption. I would see this is more the responsibility of the enlightened citizens, intellectuals, NGOs and educationists.
Now even bureaucrats have become a part of the corrupt system. Originally we would have thought they would keep some control. Ultimately it is not by changing this system alone, the individual will also have to change and this can only be done by moral values and making each individual conscious of his duties.
They say, even Indiraji used to say that corruption has become a global phenomenon. Similarly, there are others who say the best way to control corruption is to make it legal. But if these people are to blame then the people who give bribes are also to be blamed. There are exceptional circumstances when one has to give bribes but the people's conscience should tell them it is wrong.
Like I said whenever you have a good policy the result depends on its implementation. Bank nationalisation was done by Indiraji but what sort of officers were there in the banks? Those that were prepared to exploit it as much as possible. There were loan melas where loans were never returned. So unless we have honest officers to implement these policies this cannot come about.
In education also we have seen, every four or five years they form a committee. I was a member of the New Education Policy committee formed by the V P Singh government. We worked and worked and worked and submitted the report before his government was overthrown. I don't think anyone, not even the education minister must have read the report. It came before Parliament and only one member from Bombay, who happened to know me, asked a question, otherwise all reports are being shelved. They should be serious about what they do.
Political will is completely lacking in this country.
You may change the education policy but before that you must train the teachers. So without preparation you must not try to impose any new policy.
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