With the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) in a stupor and the Congress hesitant, the Third Front is trying to get its act together for the summer General Election. Propelled by the Left, the Front is looking to get Mayawati’s Bahujan Samaj Party (BSP) on its side by the time the next government is in place.
Communist Party of India (CPI) General Secretary AB Bardhan, 83, is probably India’s most senior active Left politician. He is actively cobbling the Third Front together. Bardhan was elected as an MLA to the Mumbai province in 1957. He has been CPI General Secretary since 1997. His recent interventions were in the choice of Pratibha Patil as the presidential nominee and the positioning of Mayawati as a possible Prime Ministerial candidate.
Bardhan is famous for his statement when the Sensex fell in 2004, after the Left announced it was supporting the UPA Government. “Sensex gaya bhaad mein (To hell with the Sensex)”, he snapped when asked what he thought of it. Here, Bardhan spoke to HNN extensively on how the Third Front Government would be structured, if formed, and what policy changes it would affect. Excerpts from the interview:
How do you think this election will change anything?
People will vote in such a way that a new alternative to the Congress-led UPA and the BJP-led NDA will be in place. This alternative government will be based on a more Left democratic programme.
Are you saying that the new government would necessarily have to be a friend of the Left?
It will have to be. Nowadays, barring the extreme rightists and communal parties like the BJP, all other parties want to be close to the Left.
Why do you think other parties are looking to the Left?
This is because everybody recognises that the Left is closer to the people. The Left fights for the poor, fights for the interests of the nation and its people, and is generally free of corruption. For all these reasons, the Left has a certain acceptance in the country.
It is possible that the Left will not be in the equation after the election.
I don’t see such a possibility. I don’t think that the Congress or the BJP will gain in this election. They will be the losers and other parties will relatively gain more. That will create conditions for the formation of another alternative government.
How would this alternative government be structured?
The Left parties rule three states. We expect good results there. In Tamil Nadu, the Left parties have entered into an alliance with the AIADMK. We hope to broaden that front with the possible inclusion of the PMK in the coming days. That will be a formidable front. In Andhra Pradesh, the Left has entered into an alliance with the Telugu Desam Party (TDP) and the Telangana Rashtra Samiti (TRS). That also is a formidable combination. In Karnataka, we have come to an agreement with the Janata Dal (S). In Assam and Manipur, we have arrangements with the Nationalist Congress Party (NCP) and local outfits like the Assam United Democratic Front (AUDF). Similar arrangements, I hope, will be reached in some other states before and after the polls.
In which states do you see these developments taking place?
Talks are going on in other states. In the coming days, you may see the some arrangements maturing before the polls in states where regional parties are anti-Congress and anti-BJP. In other states they may be willing to join the formation of an alternative government after the election.
You mentioned arrangements with the NCP, AIADMK, JD(S) and the TRS. The NCP is in talks with the Shiv Sena and the Congress. The AIADMK, JD(S) and TRS are also talking with the Congress-led UPA. How do you reconcile that?
These are state-specific arrangements. We have a very specific non-Congress, non-BJP agenda. Some of the other secular parties may not have exactly the same agenda. That is why I said that in some cases it might be a post-poll arrangement.
Bihar and Orissa are led by the Janata Dal (United) and the Biju Janata Dal (BJD). Are they parties you might work with?
We are certainly in touch with them.
Has the centre of political gravity in India shifted from bigger to smaller parties?
Nothing of that sort has happened. Regional parties have come up because the bigger parties have failed in their task, particularly the Congress. The Left has not been able to extend its base particularly in the Hindi area. It has now woken up to that task but it will take time. Meanwhile, we have to reckon with the reality that regional parties exist.
How would this alternative be different from similar alternatives in the past?
India is different now. The situation is also different. Similar alternatives in the past did not have a clear picture about domestic, economic and foreign policy. Now we do. Moreover, the parties are far more experienced now than what they were. It is not merely a question of power now. It is a question of power for what and for whom.
An issue that confuses voters is the number of people who want to be Prime Minister in the third alternative. Could you clarify this?
Everyone knows that becoming a Prime Minister is not a joke. There have to be numbers. Anybody can dream of being a Prime Minister. Nobody can take away the right to dream. There have to be numbers. There has to be a basis. And then, it ultimately comes down to one or two people whom you can think of as Prime Minister. Only when an alternative is capable of taking over reins of the government does the question of becoming Prime Minister come up. Till then, there are a number of people who go on projecting themselves. They are free to do so. I don’t think that people will be fooled by it.
Are there some basic things you would look for in a Prime Minister apart from just numbers?
I am not looking to any qualities of the person who can be Prime Minister. Obviously, it has to be from a party that has the required numbers in a coalition. In that case, it becomes easy as to who should be the Prime Minister.
Say the numbers look good for the Left. Is the Left in a position to project a candidate of its own?
The Left is the only group which is not immediately thinking of that. We have the required patience. We have fought all these years for socialism. We can afford to wait till our base spreads.
So, the Left will not have a candidate for the Prime Minister’s post.
We don’t have one at the moment.
Have things gone so bad that you will not support a Congress government after this election?
We broke with them on the issue of policy. Not on the issue of this election or that. I’ll prefer to sit in the opposition than support or participate in a Congress government, which will carry on the same policies. What would be the point in it?
Would you be agreeable if the Congress agrees to be part of a government it is not leading?
Don’t think a leopard suddenly changes its spots. Even today, the Congress is saying we are the only national party that exists in the country. Let us see what happens to them when they have such megalomaniac traits, forgetting the reality in the country today.
How different would your non-Congress, non-BJP government, assuming it is formed, be in terms of policy?
In economic policy we would like to give up the neoliberal capitalist path, which has brought disaster. The economic slowdown started from the US, but it has affected other developing countries also, including India. Therefore, we want changes in economic policy. We would like to see policies being undertaken based first on agriculture, which is the major industry in India. We want the domestic market to be built on the basis of employment-oriented industries, rather than only technology and capital-intensive industries. That will create a market in our country. It will put money in the pockets of our people.
The fast economic growth of the past five years has put money in the hands of a few and deprived the masses. We have an ocean of poverty with a few jutting out as billionaires, like rocks in a sea. We don’t want that type of development. The dalits, the adivasis, the minorities, Muslims in particular, have been excluded from economic, educational and social growth. We want these people, who add up to 40 percent of the country, to be part of development.
We also look forward to changes in foreign policy. We would like to see an independent foreign policy being pursued by our country and not a policy that is aligned with the US, the strongest imperialist power in the world today. We have seen the effect of the policies pursued by George W Bush. There is no sign as yet that the current president of the US will change this policy.
Would the third alternative create the state of Telangana?
That is a commitment we have given to the people of Andhra Pradesh. It is immaterial how many months this takes, but steps will have to be taken. It is a commitment. We must fulfil it immediately. Otherwise, we will lose credibility.
Would you make similar commitments elsewhere? Say, for instance, Vidarbha and other places?
No no. Those issues have not come up. We are not opening a Pandora’s box. That is one reason why we have not talked of a second states reorganisation commission. The Congress has talked of it because it wants to drown the specific by talking of generalities. They learnt it from the British who put off solutions by setting up committees and commissions.
But it won’t stop with Telangana. There are demands from other places also.
There are demands everywhere. Telangana is not merely a demand. It is a movement. There is a struggle.
Would the third alternative seek a reversal of the Indo-US civilian nuclear agreement?
It is not an equal deal. It affects our sovereignty and self-reliance in nuclear energy. But I don’t know how a reversal will take place. We have to examine this question now that the deal has been signed. The point is how far to go with the agreement even if you don’t reverse it. The latest report of the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has pointed out that we have uranium reserves. Who says that we don’t have? The government has deliberately created a scarcity of uranium to be able to justify going to the US and other countries. We could’ve used our uranium. We have indigenous development of atomic energy that could be further developed. But it has come to a halt precisely because we’ve been going elsewhere and trying to import their uranium, technology and reactors. In the process we have accepted so many conditions in the Indo-US nuclear deal.
What judicial reform would the third alternative bring?
These are all issues that will find a place in our election manifesto. Talk of judicial accountability involves the question of a judicial commission and how judges are to be recruited and removed. How judges are to be made accountable to the people. There is the question of quick justice. Imagine, for instance, Sukhram has been sentenced now after 15 years. (Sukhram is a former communications minister found guilty, from a case in the mid-1990s, of amassing wealth disproportionate to known income).
Would you expect a non-Congress, non-BJP alternative to have caste-based reservation in the private sector as well?
Sure. Affirmative action has to draw in the masses in our country that have been excluded for centuries. Reservation is a must, and not only in the public sector, but particularly at a time when the government is privatising the public sector more and more. Therefore reservation has to be there in the private sector as well if it has to continue.
There’s a tax practically on everything barring breathing. What changes in the taxation structure would the third alternative propose?
The trouble is that this government is relying more and more on indirect taxes rather than direct taxes. Indirect taxes, particularly on all types of commodities including water, lead to a situation where the burden falls on the common people. Remember the tax on salt for which Gandhi had to fight a battle? He was one of the first who indicated that this kind of indirect tax is at the root of exploitation of the masses. We have been struggling for direct taxes that can be in a progressive manner, so that those who are the wealthiest pay the most. We have been telling the government to strengthen direct taxes on the rich, like capital gains tax and wealth tax. These should be added up and all sorts on taxes on commodities should be cut.
Then the question of oil prices comes up. We demanded that the customs duties on oil be brought down. It was more than the price for crude oil that we were paying for our imports. These taxes constitute more than 50 percent of the price structure. What is the point in the government saying it is subsiding when it is actually earning more. More over, these taxes are ad valorem. This means that as prices go up, the taxes to the government also go up.
Do you expect the alternative you are working for to do all these things?
Of course. Any government will require some time, but the steps will have to be taken. The steps a government takes is the most important thing in determining whether the government is going in the right direction.
The largest chunk of money in Swiss banks is from India. Would you expect the third alternative to take steps to get this back?
The Deputy General Secretary of our party, Sudhakar Reddy, has asked that the government make an official effort to find out deposits from India in Swiss banks. They are black money deposits, made by all sorts of manoeuvres by robbing the exchequer and exploiting the people. The amount of money lying in Swiss banks is many times the GDP of our country. If that money is brought it can tackle at one go the question of food security, education and healthcare to the masses. The government must find out. Many things are also being done brazenly through the tax haven of Mauritius. That also has to be put an end to.
What steps should the non-Congress, non-BJP alternative take on this?
The Swiss banks can be compelled to reveal only if the government makes an effort. Individual efforts don’t succeed in these cases because of a certain amount of confidentiality. Why is the government of India dragging its feet? Why is it afraid of exposing all this? Is it because it is running the country on behalf of those people who have stacked money in the Swiss banks?
What about the thousands of crores of loans that Indian banks have given businessmen and industrialists? How does the third alternative propose to recover these?
These so-called non-performing assets are in lakhs of crores. This money has been taken on loan and not repaid. If a rickshawaalah takes a loan to purchase a rickshaw, we know how he is harassed if he doesn’t pay an instalment or two. Steps will have to be taken on these issues while ensuring the stability of the government and economic prosperity of the nation. These steps will have to be taken in due course.
You mentioned giving up the neoliberal path. Are there sectors where you want the third alternative to reverse the steps taken by the UPA Government?
Both in India and the US, money was pumped into the automobile sector recently. They say it is for public transport. I am not sure of that. They seek to keep the automobile industry up. There are far more basic industries. What are they doing for that? In our country, food security has to be one of the priority issues.
What about privatisation of the electricity sector? There is a big energy crisis looming.
The big energy crisis will become deeper if energy is privatised. What is the result of the 2003 Electricity Act (privatising state electricity boards)? The energy crisis has worsened. Energy has to be with the public sector. The Electricity Act has corporatised state boards by making companies. It is easy to privatise these companies. That is the ultimate goal for which the UPA government is striving. We are opposed to it and will reverse it.
Centre-State relations are a big issue for the third alternative. What will it do about Governors?
Basically we have been against the institution of the Governor. But it is easier said than done. You can’t remove all of them tomorrow. There are short-term issues, there are medium-term issues and there are long-term issues. We are not discussing long-term issues now. Not a single step has gone ahead after we gave our views on the Governor’s office to the government.
Would the third alternative act on the issue of Governors?
Let us see. There are priorities for any government. The priority is the economy and getting over the economic crisis. The priority is foreign policy.
How does the third alternative propose to deal with agricultural distress and its fallout?
We need thorough land reforms. A new class of landowners is being created with the so-called Special Economic Zones (SEZs). Plenty of real estate is being given to them. These SEZs are becoming a weapon for the capitalist and monopolist class. Thousands of hectares are being grabbed. What for? What industry requires so much of land? What project needs so much of land? All this is leading to real estate speculation. We cannot allow that.
So SEZs would not be encouraged.
Certainly not. We are fighting even today. Whatever we will try to undertake tomorrow will follow from what we are fighting for today.
You are saying the system has become immune to integrity. How does the third alternative propose to change that?
This is one of the more serious charges that I have against this government. Corruption is only a consequence of all this. You end up this way if you don’t take pro-people measures. This is creating a lot of frustration. People talk of terrorism, extremism and financial ruin in this country. All this is a consequence of the frustration that has crept in.
How would the non-Congress, non-BJP alternative open the system to integrity? How will you make it answerable?
These are not things that can be done in one election or one five-year term of a government. I’m saying that this path has to change if you look at the future. One has to start somewhere. We think that an alternative to the Congress and the BJP will be a starting point. You are talking to a person who believes in socialism. We think many of the problems will be solved only then. After the fall of the Soviet Union, a triumphant message was sent out that socialism has failed and that Marxism is dead. Some people talked of the end of history as if neocapitalism is the last word. We have seen what happened.
Has anyone plumbed the depths of the crisis that has come about, a crisis that will last at least two years? Not even the most optimistic person is talking of the crisis coming to an end immediately, except some fools in our government who make statements as if we are either immune or will be tomorrow. This is when our people in the export industry are facing layoffs and unemployment, and when suicides have started. The truth is that capitalism has no solution to the problem of ending poverty and unemployment.
How would the new alternative deal with Pakistan?
When there is a terrorist attack it has to be met. Our intelligence and security system has to be such that most of the time it is able to anticipate and prevent. But if a terrorist attack still takes place, it has to be met as in the Mumbai attack. But the important thing is to see that democracy grows in Pakistan also. We should not talk of a war because that will again drive Pakistan to a military takeover. Pakistan is very weak democracy. They have only recently got an elected government. It is good if that democratic government strengthens. It has to deal with many problems including the Taliban.
And the Taliban is the creation of the US. This fact must be hammered home in the minds of the Indian people. The US created the Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan because they thought it was necessary to fight the Soviet Union. They created this Frankenstein that is becoming a problem even for Pakistan. We have to adopt a policy that could lead to peace and good neighbourliness between India and Pakistan. We should do it with every neighbouring country.
Nobody seems to know what this peace policy should be like. This is a clear and current issue.
Are there no problems in our country? People talk of Naxalism and this and that. So there are problems in our country and in neighbouring countries. The way to solve them is not by working at cross-purposes and spreading hatred and hostility towards each other. That will only exaggerate the problems further.
Even if we don’t talk in hostile terms, Pakistan’s deal with the Taliban is seen as supping with the devil. India now has a big worry.
Who created the devil? This is what we have come to. If we are not careful, today they are in Swat valley, tomorrow they will be in Islamabad, in Lahore. And where will we be? And mind you, as against that Taliban, Hindu Talibanisation is taking place in our country. Fortunately we are country that is so deeply rooted in democracy and secularism that these groups have not been able to flourish as yet. But they can blossom if we pursue a policy based on hatred and hostility.
What about Bangladesh and the mutiny there? What would it imply for the next government in India?
We have to be friends with them as well. Bangladesh has just had an election after two years. It is good that the worst communal force, the Jamaat-e-Islami, has been defeated there. They were playing an unfortunate role and Khaleda Zia’s BNP was patronising them. Even Hasina was hobnobbing with them to some extent. Let us give time to the forces that have come up. The extent of the problems in Bangladesh can be seen in the BDR mutiny. Therefore, let us be patient. Let us cooperate, rather than worsen issues.
What about Sri Lanka? The third alternative involves parties with a deep stake in the affairs of Sri Lanka. What would the third alternative do?
The only solution is political. There has to be devolution of power. They are avoiding using the word autonomy. There are Tamil majority areas in the north and east of Sri Lanka. We have been saying that within a united Sri Lanka, these areas have to be given autonomy. So that they can develop on their own. Unfortunately, the government of Sri Lanka is indulging in arms confrontation. A military solution cannot be brought about. You can finish off the LTTE and win the battle in a positional war. But what will happen tomorrow? They will resort to all types of suicide bombings and terrorism. Will guerrilla warfare solve the issue? The issue has to be solved politically.
A few Islamist terrorist groups have drawn the India-US-Israel as a foe. What should the third alternative’s steps be towards Israel?
The India-US-Israel axis was spelt out during the days of the NDA. Advani had visited Israel; he was a great friend of the US. He started all this. The NDA’s National Security Adviser Brijesh Mishra spoke of India-US-Israel in a major speech. This will be a disaster in the Asian continent. What is Israel? How did it come into being? We are prepared to see Israel coexist with the state of Palestine. But they are not allowing this. Palestine is not the problem; Israel is the problem. The Americans fully back Israel by giving it financial support, arms and equipment.
So will India be a friend of Israel under the third alternative?
Israel is indulging in genocide against the Palestinians. That does not mean I am saying that we become an enemy of Israel. We are saying that you will have to take steps to see that it stops. At this moment, we have become the biggest arms purchaser from Israel. What does this mean? We are entering into all sorts of military deals with Israel. Whom does it help? Whom does it harm? With the money that it gets from us, Israel is escalating the war against the Palestinian people. Israel has violated every UN resolution on the Palestinian homeland, the Gaza Strip and Jerusalem. And the hawks have come to power again in Israel. We have encouraged them. We have played a role that is not what India has traditionally been playing towards Palestine.
Are you saying that the third alternative would nullify the deals with Israel?
They have to cancel the deals.
Which countries would the third alternative seek to befriend?
It is very important that India, China, Russia and Brazil, the BRIC countries, should come together. Along with South Africa, they will form a formidable force for peace and development. The centre of political gravity has shifted east. Europe has ceased to be the centre of gravity. America will in the course of a few years lose the centre of gravity they have tried to assume, about which George Bush once said this is the American century. The American century has lost out even before it matured.
We are entering a period where Asia, with India and China in the lead, will play a big role. Therefore, India, China, Russia and Brazil will have to come together. We also have to target our attention a good deal towards events in Latin America. It is no longer the backyard of the US. They have broken through and are putting forward the slogan that another world is possible. The other world may not be clear yet as to what it should be, but there is no doubt that it will be a new world that will shift away from capitalism.
Do you expect the TDP, AIADMK, TRS, NCP and maybe the Bahujan Samaj Party, to back all these policies with a clear understanding?
Even today they are taking positions on many of these issues which we think are correct. They will have to go a long way, but I think experience will drive them towards that end. It is a daunting task but with patience and plenty of goodwill, we will be able to bring them all together.
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